The discussion on Ray Boltz

[LionOfJudah OCS]

ray boltz has been one of my favorite christian singers for ever. i might be behind times here and i dont know how many of you listen to him but he came out of the closet and announced he is gay. this breaks my heart. i would ask that yall pray for him.

[Mouko OCS]

Wow...truly sad news...I know some of his songs well...

It amazes me to hear stories of "Christians" coming "out of the closet" like that.  The ones that REALLY amaze me are the pastors.  I once read of a "pastor" who lived in homosexuality while preaching in the Church...my question is HOW?!?!  How can a person who supposedly "lives and breathes" the Word of God live that way and still be able to preach?  I believe I know the answer to that question, but still, it is HARD to wrap my head around it.

I think this is an important thing to address.  First, however, Lion, believe me, we'll be praying for him.

Some comments from the article making the announcement.

"I guess I felt that the church, that they had it wrong about how I felt with being gay all these years, so maybe they had it wrong about a lot of other things."

"This is what it really comes down to,” he says. “If this is the way God made me, then this is the way I’m going to live. It’s not like God made me this way and he’ll send me to hell if I am who he created me to be … I really feel closer to God because I no longer hate myself."

I was going to post a link to the article, however, there are homosexual images and advertisements.  If anyone wants to look it up, let me know and I'll PM the link to you.  I may post the article as the site contains these images.  It is, however, a large article.

[LionOfJudah OCS]

boy is he confused.

[Mouko OCS]

Hmm, you should read the whole article...if you haven't already.

I've also read some of the comments made in response to the original article and other's...so many have the same way of thinking.  I guess I knew that was the case...but it nearly takes my breath away to realize there are entire "churches" organized behind this belief.  I'm not one who cries much at all, ask my wife.  But, all of this does, as you said Lion, break my heart.  I've gone beyond angry at it and it just really saddens me that so many are completely missing it.  And when you try to address the issue out of love, you're accused of being hateful and judgemental.  One comment was made that said to the extent..."if that's your God I want nothing of it."

Unless the Spirit convinces them of the truth, I fear for them. 

Matthew 7:21-23 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven; but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven.  Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'

[The Deacon OCS]

This is the danger of the "ecummenical movement" and the watering down of Christianity. The lies being perpetrated and the mindless minions who are uneducated in the Word are paving the way for the one world church

[Mouko OCS]

Good point Deacon. 

2 Timothy 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but [wanting] to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires;

[LionOfJudah OCS]

that quote sums up alot, mormons, jehovas witness.......ect. i have to keep in my mind that sin is sin in our lords eyes. wether its homosexuality or murder or staring at a beutiful girl on the beach with lust on your mind. i believe GOD can forgive for all that and more.

[Mouko OCS]

Sad thing is Lion, that it likely sums up more people than most realize.  As I get to know people more from our congregation...I found out that there are so many people out there that rely only on what makes sense to them...regardless of just how clear the Bible is about the matter.  Our head deacon has even had some tell him..."I don't care what the Bible says, this is what I believe."

[PureKnight OCS]

it is grieving me to read this. Thousand is bound with homosexuality and are slave to it.

1) Do you truly believe that homosexuality can be heal. Or you rather think once homosexual, always homosexual?

2) have you heard about Exodus International Ministry? Your opinion?

[Mouko OCS]

Well Pure, to answer the first question...yes I believe God can and does heal anyone who truly puts their faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.  As for question two...haven't heard of them...

[LionOfJudah OCS]

ticker, since our discussion concerning ray boltz and CHRISTian music i have had this on my heart and felt i should share it.


Ray Boltz Comes Out

Mark Moring

Ray Boltz, who sold about 4.5 million records before retiring from Christian music a few years ago, came out of the closet Friday to announce that he's gay.

In an interview with the gay magazine The Washington Blade, Boltz said he came out to his family and some close friends in December 2004, but only now decided to go public with the news.

"I'd denied it ever since I was a kid," Boltz, 55, told the magazine. "I became a Christian, I thought that was the way to deal with this and I prayed hard and tried for 30-some years and then at the end, I was just going, 'I'm still gay. I know I am.' And I just got to the place where I couldn't take it anymore — when I was going through all this darkness, I thought, 'Just end this.' "

One reason Boltz decided to come out now might be because he's performing Sunday at Jesus Metropolitan Community Church in Indianapolis, and then next Sunday, Sept. 21, at the Metropolitan Community Church of Washington, D.C. Both congregations are a part of a denomination that embraces the LGBT (Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual and Transgender) community.
Boltz is perhaps best known for his song "Thank You," about a dream in which a Christian thanks the Sunday school teacher who led him to Jesus. It was the GMA song of the year in 1990. Other Boltz hits include "Watch the Lamb," "The Anchor Holds," and "I Pledge Allegiance to the Lamb."

Boltz also told The Blade that he doesn't want to get into debates about Scripture and has no plans to "go into First Baptist or an Assembly of God church and run in there and say, 'I'm gay and you need to love me anyway.' "

For him, the decision to come out is much more personal.

"This is what it really comes down to," he says. "If this is the way God made me, then this is the way I'm going to live. It's not like God made me this way and he'll send me to hell if I am who he created me to be — I really feel closer to God because I no longer hate myself."

Earlier, Boltz had alluded to the issue on his official website, saying that if people "knew who I really was, I would never be accepted."

Romans 1:24-32
(24) Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves,
(25) because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen.
(26) For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature;
(27) and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error.
(28) And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done.
(29) They were filled with all manner of unrighteousness, evil, covetousness, malice. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, maliciousness. They are gossips,
(30) slanderers, haters of God, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents,
(31) foolish, faithless, heartless, ruthless.
(32) Though they know God's decree that those who practice such things deserve to die, they not only do them but give approval to those who practice them.

i think this one verse is talking about aids!

[Ticker OCS]

Thanks for that Lion..I had never known that about him! Such a shocker in a way,but he definitely has some things in his life that he needs to pray about, I don't believe that God makes people Gay..quite the other way around in my opinion. I've went on and deleted his song from my mp3 player LOL...my wife said she hadn't heard of it either,but we probably weren't listening to the news at the time that he spoke of it, thanks for sharing this with me, glad to know the truth buddy

[The Deacon OCS]

I did not know that of him either. The song itself has a lot of meaning for me. I have it on CD by an artist known as Chuck Cremeans, who I happen to think is a better singer.

Boltz's theology is wrong, obviously. We all sin but that is not how God made us. We are all of the first Adam and have inherited his sin nature. We make a choice to sin or not. Yes, God loves us but there are still consquences to our sinful actions, even more so if you take God's Word out of context or say certain sections are not longer relevant to these times.

I agree that he was not born that way but rather it is a learned behavior and a choice. I don't doubt that he had the tendencies that he did, but it should have caused him to flee from it and grow closer to the Lord.

Even Paul had a "thorn" which he asked God to take away from him. God did not remove the thorn and it is my belief that God did not remove it so that it would cause Paul to cling to God even more. Trails and tribulations draw us closer to the Lord. The lack of trials and tribulations can cause us to stray.

Boltz simply caved into his sin rather than continue to fight it.

We each have our "thorn" and how we choose to deal with it will draw us closer or further away from the Lord.

[Ticker OCS]

Exactly Deacon,...RB stated that "if anything I am now closer to God"...I don't exactly agree with that statement, I mean if anything he's farther away now than he ever was. If you take the truth..being the Bible and Jesus word, and try to say "well but I was born this way,God made me this way" then you're just falling into the belief that "sin is ok,and has no consequence" Being homosexual to me in my opinion... is an unclean spirit that you have, you need to pray and probably pray some more, think of how wrong it is, thinking of that wrong will lead you to the punishment for it as with any wrong doing..it's not about "God made me this way"  When as Christians we know in truth that God made us after his own image, we are supposed to reflect our light upon the world to say "I am a Christian" and I don't think anyone would look at a homosexual person and think that...even the worst sinner would say "well you're gay, you know where you'll end up"...

[Ticker OCS]

Ok..I was thinking about my last post there, it sounds as if I'm saying "we as people can tell each other "you're going to hell for being homosexual" that's not what I was getting at... if Ray Boltz would just pick up his bible and read the story of Sodom and Gomorrah and how God destroyed them..he would see exactly where the Lord stands on the subject. I don't believe for a second that God makes someone that way or instills that into them from birth...call me old fashioned but I just don't believe that. Do I believe our world has grown to accept it? Yes  And it's not for me to tell these people they are wrong, I can gently try to urge them toward the Lord for help and deliverance of it,but it seems to be one of those "don't hate what you don't understand" situations. It's hard at times to sound the way we want to sound in text, that's the bad thing about talking online,it has no tone at all lol.

[The Deacon OCS]

Our World is becoming more and more like Sodom and Gomorah where it more acceptable to do what is wrong rather than what is right.

If someone told me they were gay and that is ok with God, I would question whether they are really saved and show them in the Scripture where it is not ok. I would suggest that they are not speaking about the God of the Bible.

We reach people who engage in any sinful adiction in much the same way. You show them God loves them, wants a personal relationship with them and wants them to turn away from their sin. It is for us to plant the seed and for the Holy Spirit to tug on their heart.

The "don't hate what you don't understand" is very typical of the liberal and sinful way of thought. It is rationality used to supress the Truth.

[PureKnight OCS]

I thought I should add one more scripture from New Testament to this discussion because I have heard some people claim that Old Testament is not necessary appliable today anymore due to Lord Jesus Christ as the fulfillment of Old Testament. For that, many people are mistaken. I thought one more scripture will be helpful and additional support to Romans which Lion have mentioned.

"Do you not know that the unrighteious will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolators, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God." (1 Corinthians 6:9-10 NKJV).

[PureKnight OCS]

I read this post more closely again and breaks my heart this time. I also have heard many comments as Lion shared: God made me that way. So wrong and untrue.

I have ministried to many homosexual people and God knows I love them. I keep preach the Truth with love. I keep pray for the powerful convicting power of Holy Spirit to do fullest works. And He does! And Sad to say, many homosexual people have choose to continue that behavior. But in my career as youth pastor for 8 years, I have lead at least ONE person who ex-gay into Christ. And out of all, This ONE is worth my energy and time.

I am majoring in Mental Health Counseling for graduate studies in secular university. (I could not get in Christian university, WHATEVER!) And gosh... majority of students alsobelieve in "born that way"--part of genetics so it is nature. Thankful, there are some Christian classmates including myself stood up for the Truth. Then unfortantely, our discussion is being graded. That what I get for enroll in the secular university.

So far, I am able to collect some theories, perceptions, and facts from researches. Here is some reason WHY people are gay/lesbian:
* lack of love
* inadequate supervision
* easy accessability to sexual sensation (such as being in locker with certain people or being alone)
* routine and opportunity (based on the theory of criminology)
* identity confusing
* lack of father/fatherhood/father figure or role/similar (step father has been proven to be helpful WHEN he is actively involved into family)
* oppression/persecution toward gay/lesbian group... they push their fortification of their choice (that why the march of protest such as hatred message is WRONG and unbiblical, actually)
* secret fear which hestiate to share about the confusion due to unsafe atomsphere
* sexualized-pressured society
* exposed to sex at early age
* prolonged experimental experience

I cannot think anymore but I can be sure I can add more list to that later on. It obviously based on choice of lifestyle. Genetics is garabe, actually.

For your information, people HATE when we say homosexual to them... they perfer being label as gay or lesbian. That if you are work on your relationship with certain people for the glory of God (salvation, of course).

Back to the discussion of Ray Boltz, I am sure he become gay for one or more reasons that I listed. I think it is important to talk about this then pray about our world. Then challenge ourselves to find at least one or two gay/lesbian people to witness and win them for Christ. IT would be challenge but all we have to do is open ourselves the love of Christ will flow.

Thank you, Lion, for start this discussion.

[The Deacon OCS]

Even more today is the ready acceptance and indoctrination through our secular schools, TV programs and news media. They start on our young ones when they are most impreshionable.

Another New Testament scripture from Galations 5 ....

16This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

 17For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

 18But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

 19Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

 20Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

 21Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.