Mormonism

[TheLastSparten OCS]

To keep the other thread that we originally started with on topic I created this one. Now we will be on topic.

If any one else wishes to join in, please do.

[The Deacon OCS]

(I am going to copy my previous posts here from http://o-c-s.us/index.php?topic=271.0 )


I understand why the Last Sparten is saying what he is because his background lies in the LDS Church. Sparten, I mean no disrespect to you personally but we are theologically so very far apart. In fact, I have a very close friend of mine that is a fervent member of the LDS church in Utah. I pray for his salvation daily.

If you study the LDS teachings carefully, you will find the following theology (just hitting a couple of major points here) that is vastly different from the teaching of the Old and New Testaments:

1. God is an exalted "physical man"
2. Jesus is the Spirit child of God the Father who had a physical sexual union with Mary
3. Mormonism rejects the Trinity
4. Salvation is achieved through works. All will be saved except a few sons of perdition
5. Salvation is possible even after death
6. Hell is not eternal but a temporal purgatory
7. Man has the capacity to evolve into godhood
8. Good works cancel the penalty of sin
9. They refer to the Second Coming of "the god" Joseph Smith (Journal of Discourses 7:289; 5:19
10. Whereever the Bible disagrees with the book of mormon, the Bible is considered incorrect

These are just but a few things where mormonism and the LDS church stray from the teachings of the Bible.

I have studied this issue at length because of my close friends association with that church but I am by no means an expert on the issue.


I am a student of history, philosophy and theology. I want this to stay on a non-personal basis as it is not my intent to disrespect you but rather to challenge you to consider the info I am putting forth. So, I will primarily use examples from your churches own writings. As in many cases, people fail to conduct an in depth study of what they believe in including not only "all" the theological data but also any supporting historical data.

Also, if you place all your faith in a religion that you believe in, you should really learn how to spell "mormon". And yes, I have purposely chosen not to capitilize the name of the church.

Your church may not overtly say it is waiting for the second coming of Joseph Smith but the mormon writings support that they are. I have even quoted this from one of your "many" mormon books.

It is the position of the LDS Church that the book of mormon is another testament of Christ. It is not the position of Christians.

When God spoke through men to put the Bible to writing it was there to be read for all to see.

The LDS church projects the book of mormon as the primary theological book they believe in. But they say little about the various other books that the LDS church follows that conflict with both the book of mormon and the Bible. One must keep everything in context and read all the books together that forms everything a religion professes and its people believes in. For instance Islam primarily uses the Quoran but also uses the Bible and other books to a lessor degree and many conflict with each other.

John Smith allegedly found some gold tablets and was given some rose colored glasses in order to read the tablets. No one could translate the tablets except Smith which were the basis for the book of mormon and the mormon church. So if we are to believe in mormonism we must trust the translation of some tablets by an faliable man. Sorry, I do not put my trust in any man, just in God and Christ. Smith was known to perform ritualistic magic amd was involved in using peep stones to receive psychic information.

Good works don't cancel the penalty of sin, repentance does.

My point exactly. This is the position of the mormon church, however, Christians believe that the Grace of Jesus Christ is the only thing that can forgive your sins not any works. Christ shed His blood so that we might have eternal life. But we must also accept Christ as our personal saviour. Mormonism believes that "repentance" incorporates "works"

Smith was a known diviner and the Bible preaches against those engaged in divination.

Many prophecies announced by Smith never came true including those that he said would come true in his own lifetime.

Other LDS prophecies did not come true such as the prophecy that Brigham Young would become President of the United States

In studing the teachings of the various books of the mormon church they are really polytheistic and not monotheistic. Anotherwords they believe and are open to many gods. There are men who are accepted to have evolved into godhood. This is where mormon followers become really uncomfortable with that challenge.

But lets look at Joseph Smith's own words: "In the beginning, the head of the Gods called a council of the Gods;and they came together and concocted a plan to create the world and the people in it." (Doctrines of the Gospel; page 16).

Or, the creation account found in mormon scripture in the Pearl of Great Price: At the beginning....the Gods (plural) organized and formed the heavens and the earth....

Joseph Smith said this about Christian pastors: "they are of their father the devil....."

In 1 Nephi, chapters 13, 14 and elsewhere the book of mormon calls the Christian Church "a church which is most abominable above all other churches"..."it is founded by the devil" and etc.

I could go on if you would like....

[The Deacon OCS]

Mormonism also references that Satan and Jesus were brothers. The LDS publication "Gospel Principles", a straightforward presentation of Mormon doctrine, says this directly in chapter 3, pp. 17 and 18:
Our Father said, "Whom shall I send?" Two of our brothers offered to help. Our oldest brother, Jesus Christ, who was then called Jehovah, said, "Here am I, send me." ... Satan, who was called Lucifer, also came, saying, "Behold, her am I, send me..." ...After hearing both sons speak, Heavenly Father said, "I will send the first."


Here is another major point of the theological difference between Christinaity and Mormons:
The nature of the Mormon Jesus is vastly different from that of the biblical Jesus. They are not minor differences. According to LDS theology, Jesus is a created being, distinct and separate from God the Father. He is the spirit brother of Lucifer. Even the importance of what He came to do--die on the cross for the complete remission of sins of all who put their faith in Him--is diminished by LDS theology (D&C 18:11-12, for instance). These are hardly small points of contention; these are fundamental, core issues about who Jesus Christ really is, and what He came to do. The biblical picture of Jesus Christ is that He is God--not of God, not a god, but God. The rejection of something so foundational clearly places Mormonism outside of biblical Christianity.

[TheLastSparten OCS]

It may take me a little while to come up with a suitable counter-post, because I'll have to wright it all down before I put on.

I am not usually challenged to stick up for my religion like this; I think it will be a great learning experience for me. While being fun.

So, in a way I guess I have to thank you Deacon. Maybe we can both learn a little something. Who knows? (That's a retorical question.)

[Navy CW4]

There are a lot of things I can say on this issue, however, I will only quote what D.L. Moody said to a Mormon on a train ride from Chicago to Salt Lake: You keep telling me what I must to do, but the Bible reads it's already done.

"And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work."  Romans 11:6

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast."  Ephesians 2:8-9

"O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh? Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain. He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham. And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham. For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them. Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree: That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man's covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto. Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect. For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.

Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator. Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one. Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law. But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise."  Galatians 3

"So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God."  Romans 8:8

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made."  John 1:1-3

Therefore, proving that Jesus and satan are not brothers.

"Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost."  2 Peter 1:20-21

"I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed."  Galatians 1:6-9

"Answers to my Mormon Friends," by Thomas F. Heinze

[Etchglow]

While I do not normally post, mostly as to prevent myself from making a fool of myself, I find several of the things said in this thread to warrant posting.  Also, while I am not a Mormon I do know several people of this faith. 

4. Salvation is achieved through works. All will be saved except a few sons of perdition
5. Salvation is possible even after death
8. Good works cancel the penalty of sin

I have singled these arguments out of your post Deacon not out of animosity or anything like that, however, I did it because I feel that, as a Christian, we can hold these against the Mormon faith.  Why do I believe this way?  To hold these against any faith would be hypocritical of us in the fact that during the 1500's the Catholic Church practiced these.  A commonly held belief in the Catholic Church during the 1500's was that one had to do good works go gain the grace of God in order to ascend into heaven and not be condemned to purgatory.  This was such a common belief during this period of time, according to many different scholars, that the Catholic Church (at the order of the pope, some say this was to raise money)  practiced "indulgences." This was the believe that there was excess grace in this world and that the Pope could distribute the excess grace to help ensure that people did not end up in purgatory.  I'm pretty sure, I do not have the document in front of me, that a man named Johann Tetzel was sent by the Pope in 1517 to Germany to sell these "indulgences."  I have also read several accounts of him selling these to the families of the recently deceased on behalf of the deceased.  In fact, this was one of the main reasons Martin Luther broke off from the Catholic Church. 

While I do not approve of the teachings of The Book of Mormon and I have tried to keep this as non-argumentative as possible.  However, I do believe that we should be respectful in our dealings with people who may or may not share our beliefs.  Here I believe the old adage about catching more flies with honey than vinegar holds true.

Etchglow OCS

P.s. I don't want to fuel another war over the versions of the bible; however, I would like to point out that there are approximately 5000 manuscripts of the New Testament alone and among those 5000 manuscripts there are approximately 300,000 variations on reading due to the fact that we do not have the original manuscripts of the books.

[Mouko OCS]

I don't think it's so much of pointing out people's flaws as pointing out the teachings of a religion.  They either line up wth scripture, or they don't.  Even within particular "denominations" of Christianity, there are teachings that don't line up with scripture. 

These particular 3 things are core to Christianity.  There are many things in scripture that, while important, do not determine the salvation of a person.  These points are directly related to salvation, which points to our ultimate destiny. 

I'm not sure how that is hypocritical as the Bible teaches one way to God by grace through faith in Christ...of which works have no part in determining...they are the result...and also that not all will be saved.

[Etchglow]

Oi, I used the H word there (hypocritical), and I agree that their teachings are not within what we as Christians define as true.  I was just pointing out that in history the Catholic Church practiced some of the things which have been noted as how the Mormon faith differs from our Christian faith.

Etchglow OCS

p.s. sorry for using the H word 

[The Deacon OCS]

No prob Etchy. Looks like you know your history and that makes you no ones fool. You should post more.

The history and writings of the mormon church are what I am using for my arguments.

The Pope and Catholic leadership at the time use the indulgences as a way to gather money for their greed. And yes, it was a hypocrasy as indulgences and the ideas behind it were not Scriptural. Also, remember that at this time the Catholic bible was in Latin and a majority of Catholics could not read their native language let alone Latin. Books, the few that there were, were handcopied. Their leadership was lying to them and they did not know it because they could not read the Bible.

The "H" word in Christianity applies to individuals (not the Bible) who are not following the teachings found in the Bible. They are using the Bible to justify their "own" means.

[Mouko OCS]

Sorry for using the "H" word...lol...why?  Sorry if I sounded a little defensive with my post. 

I agree with Deacon too Etchy, you should post more as you obviously know your history...your input can be most helpful and will be appreciated.  Thanks for the information guys.

[TheLastSparten OCS]

I have yet to finish my counter post to Deacon's post, but I have a question for you.

What is faith without work? One just can't have faith in something because one says they do. That one must study and ponder to gain that faith.

You guys make it seem like faith is something easily acquired.

[The Deacon OCS]

I have yet to finish my counter post to Deacon's post, but I have a question for you.

What is faith without work? One just can't have faith in something because one says they do. That one must study and ponder to gain that faith.

You guys make it seem like faith is something easily acquired.

No rush Spartan

Faith is not easily acquired or the whole world would be bowing down right now before the Father and Christ. And yet, according to the Bible, when one dies, whether a believer or not, they will confess that Christ is Lord and will bow their knee to him. At that point, for those who finally realize Christ is Lord, it will be too late for them and they will go to "eternal" torment. But the mormon church preaches that one can "work" their way out of hell which is contrary to the teachings of the Bible

"What is faith without works?" It depends on your point of view, the difference is subtle but worlds apart from each other.

A mormon is taught that works are "the way" to salvation.

For a Christian, Jesus is "the way" to salvation. Our faith is shown by good works

This will be a long post because this is a very in-depth subject by which many are confused. So I will post some Scripture and some commentary from Matthew Henry. I have to do this in two posts because of the size of the post


James 2:18-26

18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?

26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
KJV



James 2:14-26

Faith and works

In this latter part of the chapter, the apostle shows the error of those who rested in a bare profession of the Christian faith, as if that would save them, while the temper of their minds and the tenour of their lives were altogether disagreeable to that holy religion which they professed. To let them see, therefore, what a wretched foundation they built their hopes upon, it is here proved at large that a man is justified, not by faith only, but by works. Now,
I. Upon this arises a very great question, namely, how to reconcile Paul and James. Paul, in his epistles to the Romans and Galatians, seems to assert the directly contrary thing to what James here lays down, saying if often, and with a great deal of emphasis, that we are justified by faith only and not by the works of the law. Amicae scripturarum lites, utinam et nostrae-There is a very happy agreement between one part of scripture and another, notwithstanding seeming differences: it were well if the differences among Christians were as easily reconciled. "Nothing," says Mr. Baxter, "but men's misunderstanding the plain drift and sense of Paul's epistles, could make so many take it for a matter of great difficulty to reconcile Paul and James." A general view of those things which are insisted on by the Antinomians may be seen in Mr. Baxter's Paraphrase: and many ways might be mentioned which have been invented among learned men to make the apostles agree; but it may be sufficient only to observe these few things following:-
1. When Paul says that a man is justified by faith, without the deeds of the law (Rom 3:28), he plainly speaks of another sort of work than James does, but not of another sort of faith. Paul speaks of works wrought in obedience to the law of Moses, and before men's embracing the faith of the gospel; and he had to deal with those who valued themselves so highly upon those works that they rejected the gospel (as Rom 10, at the beginning most expressly declares); but James speaks of works done in obedience to the gospel, and as the proper and necessary effects and fruits of sound believing in Christ Jesus. Both are concerned to magnify the faith of the gospel, as that which alone could save us and justify us; but Paul magnifies it by showing the insufficiency of any works of the law before faith, or in opposition to the doctrine of justification by Jesus Christ; James magnifies the same faith, by showing what are the genuine and necessary products and operations of it.
2. Paul not only speaks of different works from those insisted on by James, but he speaks of a quite different use that was made of good works from what is here urged and intended. Paul had to do with those who depended on the merit of their works in the sight of God, and thus he might well make them of no manner of account. James had to do with those who cried up faith, but would not allow works to be used even as evidence; they depended upon a bare profession, as sufficient to justify them; and with these he might well urge the necessity and vast importance of good works. As we must not break one table of the law, by dashing it against the other, so neither must we break in pieces the law and the gospel, by making them clash with one another: those who cry up the gospel so as to set aside the law, and those who cry up the law so as to set aside the gospel, are both in the wrong; for we must take our work before us; there must be both faith in Jesus Christ and good works the fruit of faith.
3. The justification of which Paul speaks is different from that spoken of by James; the one speaks of our persons being justified before God, the other speaks of our faith being justified before men: "Show me thy faith by thy works," says James, "let thy faith be justified in the eyes of those that behold thee by thy works;" but Paul speaks of justification in the sight of God, who justifies those only that believe in Jesus, and purely on account of the redemption that is in him. Thus we see that our persons are justified before God by faith, but our faith is justified before men by works. This is so plainly the scope and design of the apostle James that he is but confirming what Paul, in other places, says of his faith, that it is a laborious faith, and a faith working by love, Gal 5:6; 1 Thess 1:3; Titus 3:8; and many other places.
4. Paul may be understood as speaking of that justification which is inchoate, James of that which is complete; it is by faith only that we are put into a justified state, but then good works come in for the completing of our justification at the last great day; then, Come you children of my Father-for I was hungry, and you gave me meat, etc.
II. Having thus cleared this part of scripture from every thing of a contradiction to other parts of it, let us see what is more particularly to be learnt from this excellent passage of James; we are taught,
1. That faith without works will not profit, and cannot save us. What doth it profit, my brethren, if a man say he hath faith, and have not works? Can faith save him? Observe here,
(1.) That faith which does not save will not really profit us; a bare profession may sometimes seem to be profitable, to gain the good opinion of those who are truly good, and it may procure in some cases worldly good things; but what profit will this be, for any to gain the world and to lose their souls? What doth it profit?-Can faith save him? All things should be accounted profitable or unprofitable to us as they tend to forward or hinder the salvation of our souls. And, above all other things, we should take care thus to make account of faith, as that which does not profit, if it do not save, but will aggravate our condemnation and destruction at last.
(2.) For a man to have faith, and to say he has faith, are two different things; the apostle does not say, If a man have faith without works, for that is not a supposable case; the drift of this place of scripture is plainly to show that an opinion, or speculation, or assent, without works, is not faith; but the case is put thus, If a man say he hath faith, etc. Men may boast of that to others, and be conceited of that in themselves, of which they are really destitute.
2. We are taught that, as love or charity is an operative principle, so is faith, and that neither of them would otherwise be good for any thing; and, by trying how it looks for a person to pretend he is very charitable who yet never does any works of charity, you may judge what sense there is in pretending to have faith without the proper and necessary fruits of it: "If a brother or a sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, and one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be you warmed and filled, notwithstanding you give them not those things which are needful to the body, what doth it profit? v. 15-17. What will such a charity as this, that consists in bare words, avail either you or the poor? Will you come before God with such empty shows of charity as these? You might as well pretend that your love and charity will stand the test without acts of mercy as think that a profession of faith will bear you out before God without works of piety and obedience. Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone," v. 17. We are too apt to rest in a bare profession of faith, and to think that this will save us; it is a cheap and easy religion to say, "We believe the articles of the Christian faith;" but it is a great delusion to imagine that this is enough to bring us to heaven. Those who argue thus wrong God, and put a cheat upon their own souls; a mock-faith is as hateful as mock-charity, and both show a heart dead to all real godliness. You may as soon take pleasure in a dead body, void of soul, or sense, or action, as God take pleasure in a dead faith, where there are no works.
3. We are taught to compare a faith boasting of itself without works and a faith evidenced by works, by looking on both together, to try how this comparison will work upon our minds. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works. Show me thy faith without thy works, and I will show thee my faith by my works, v. 18. Suppose a true believer thus pleading with a boasting hypocrite, "Thou makest a profession, and sayest thou hast faith; I make no such boasts, but leave my works to speak for me. Now give any evidence of having the faith thou professest without works if thou canst, and I will soon let thee see how my works flow from faith and are the undoubted evidences of its existence." This is the evidence by which the scriptures all along teach men to judge both of themselves and others. And this is the evidence according to which Christ will proceed at the day of judgment. The dead were judged according to their works, Rev 20:12. How will those be exposed then who boast of that which they cannot evidence, or who go about to evidence their faith by any thing but works of piety and mercy!
4. We are taught to look upon a faith of bare speculation and knowledge as the faith of devils: Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well; the devils also believe, and tremble, v. 19. That instance of faith which the apostle here chooses to mention is the first principle of all religion. "Thou believest that there is a God, against the atheists; and that there is but one God, against the idolaters; thou doest well: so far all is right. But to rest here, and take up a good opinion of thyself, or of thy state towards God, merely on account of thy believing in him, this will render thee miserable: The devils also believe, and tremble. If thou contentest thyself with a bare assent to articles of faith, and some speculations upon them, thus far the devils go. And as their faith and knowledge only serve to excite horror, so in a little time will thine." The word tremble is commonly looked upon as denoting a good effect of faith; but here it may rather be taken as a bad effect, when applied to the faith of devils. They tremble, not out of reverence, but hatred and opposition to that one God on whom they believe. To rehearse that article of our creed, therefore, I believe in God the Father Almighty, will not distinguish us from devils at last, unless we now give up ourselves to God as the gospel directs, and love him, and delight ourselves in him, and serve him, which the devils do not, cannot do.

[The Deacon OCS]

continuation of post above


5. We are taught that he who boasts of faith without works is to be looked upon at present as a foolish condemned person. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? v. 20. The words translated vain man-anthrope kene, are observed to have the same signification with the word Raca, which must never be used to private persons, or as an effect of anger (Matt 5:22), but may be used as here, to denote a just detestation of such a sort of men as are empty of good works, and yet boasters of their faith. And it plainly declares them fools and abjects in the sight of God. Faith without works is said to be dead, not only as void of all those operations which are the proofs of spiritual life, but as unavailable to eternal life: such believers as rest in a bare profession of faith are dead while they live.
6. We are taught that a justifying faith cannot be without works, from two examples, Abraham and Rahab.
(1.) The first instance is that of Abraham, the father of the faithful, and the prime example of justification, to whom the Jews had a special regard (v. 21): Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Paul, on the other hand, says (in ch. 4 of the epistle to the Romans) that Abraham believed, and it was counted to him for righteousness. But these are well reconciled, by observing what is said in Heb 11, which shows that the faith both of Abraham and Rahab was such as to produce those good works of which James speaks, and which are not to be separated from faith as justifying and saving. By what Abraham did, it appeared that he truly believed. Upon this footing, the words of God himself plainly put this matter. Gen 22:16-17, Because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son; therefore in blessing I will bless thee. Thus the faith of Abraham was a working faith (v. 22), it wrought with his works, and by works was made perfect. And by this means you come to the true sense of that scripture which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness, v. 23. And thus he became the friend of God. Faith, producing such works, endeared him to the divine Being, and advanced him to very peculiar favours and intimacies with God. It is a great honour done to Abraham that he is called and counted the friend of God. You see then (v. 24) how that by works a man is justified (comes into such a state of favour and friendship with God), and not by faith only; not by a bare opinion, or profession, or believing without obeying, but by having such a faith as is productive of good works. Now besides the explication of this passage and example, as thus illustrating and supporting the argument James is upon, many other useful lessons may be learned by us from what is here said concerning Abraham.
[1.] Those who would have Abraham's blessings must be careful to copy after his faith: to boast of being Abraham's seed will not avail any, if they do not believe as he did.
[2.] Those works which evidence true faith must to works of self-denial, and such as God himself commands (as Abraham's offering up his son, his only son, was), and not such works as are pleasing to flesh and blood and may serve our interest, or are the mere fruits of our own imagination and devising.
[3.] What we piously purpose and sincerely resolve to do for God is accepted as if actually performed. Thus Abraham is regarded as offering up his son, though he did not actually proceed to make a sacrifice of him. It was a done thing in the mind, and spirit, and resolution of Abraham, and God accepts it as if fully performed and accomplished.
[4.] The actings of faith make it grow perfect, as the truth of faith makes it act.
[5.] Such an acting faith will make others, as well as Abraham, friends of God. Thus Christ says to his disciples, I have called you friends, John 15:15. All transactions between God and the truly believing soul are easy, pleasant, and delightful. There is one will and one heart, and there is a mutual complacency. God rejoiceth over those who truly believe, to do them good; and they delight themselves in him.
(2.) The second example of faith's justifying itself and us with and by works is Rahab: Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way? v. 25. The former instance was of one renowned for his faith all his life long, This is of one noted for sin, whose faith was meaner and of a much lower degree; so that the strongest faith will not do, nor the meanest be allowed to go without works. Some say that the word here rendered harlot was the proper name of Rahab. Others tell us that it signifies no more than a hostess, or one who keeps a public house, with whom therefore the spies lodged. But it is very probable that her character was infamous; and such an instance is mentioned to show that faith will save the worst, when evidenced by proper works; and it will not save the best without such works as God requires. This Rahab believed the report she had heard of God's powerful presence with Israel; but that which proved her faith sincere was, that, to the hazard of her life, she received the messengers, and sent them out another way. Observe here,
[1.] The wonderful power of faith in transforming and changing sinners.
[2.] The regard which an operative faith meets with from God, to obtain his mercy and favour.
[3.] Where great sins are pardoned, there must prefer the honour of God and the good of his people before the preservation of her own country. Her former acquaintance must be discarded, her former course of life entirely abandoned, and she must give signal proof and evidence of this before she can be in a justified state; and even after she is justified, yet her former character must be remembered; not so much to her dishonour as to glorify the rich grace and mercy of God. Though justified, she is called Rahab the harlot.
7. And now, upon the whole matter, the apostle draws this conclusion, As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also, v. 26. These words are read differently; some reading them, As the body without the breath is dead, so is faith without works: and then they show that works are the companions of faith, as breathing is of life. Others read them, As the body without the soul is dead, so faith without works is dead also: and then they show that as the body has no action, nor beauty, but becomes a loathsome carcass, when the soul is gone, so a bare profession without works is useless, yea, loathsome and offensive. Let us then take head of running into extremes in this case. For,
(1.) The best works, without faith, are dead; they want their root and principle. It is by faith that any thing we do is really good, as done with an eye to God, in obedience to him, and so as to aim principally at his acceptance.
(2.) The most plausible profession of faith, without works, is dead: as the root is dead when it produces nothing green, nothing of fruit. Faith is the root, good works are the fruits, and we must see to it that we have both. We must not think that either, without the other, will justify and save us. This is the grace of God wherein we stand, and we should stand to it.

[Ticker OCS]

I have one response to this whole topic... John 3:16

[Cortath OCS]

I have one response to this whole topic... John 3:16

Amen!

[TheLastSparten OCS]

Just to clearify are we all in the KIng James Version of the Bible?

[The Deacon OCS]

Just to clearify are we all in the KIng James Version of the Bible?

That is the primary translation most of us use.

[LionOfJudah OCS]

king james is what i go by.

[Navy CW4]

I don't think it's so much of pointing out people's flaws as pointing out the teachings of a religion.  They either line up wth scripture, or they don't.  Even within particular "denominations" of Christianity, there are teachings that don't line up with scripture. 

These particular 3 things are core to Christianity.  There are many things in scripture that, while important, do not determine the salvation of a person.  These points are directly related to salvation, which points to our ultimate destiny. 

I'm not sure how that is hypocritical as the Bible teaches one way to God by grace through faith in Christ...of which works have no part in determining...they are the result...and also that not all will be saved.

Mouko hit the bullseye.  The issue is not about people, it's about the flaws of religion.

[Navy CW4]

Just to clearify are we all in the KIng James Version of the Bible?

TheLastSparten, I don't quote from anything but AV1611

[TheLastSparten OCS]

AV1611?

[Ticker OCS]

AV1611 (AV=Authorized Version) 1611 (The Year it was originally published). Later to become known as the Kings James Version. 

[TheLastSparten OCS]

Thanks Ticker

[TheLastSparten OCS]

Deacon,  I know from what I have read from your posts that if I were to engage in this challenge that I, in a way, started and most definitely encouraged I would not be able to convince you that my church is wholeheartedly Christian as Christianity encompasses any and all of those that believe in Jesus Christ. Or that the Bible, having been translated so many times, is sometimes incorrect. While the Book of Mormon has only been translated once by a man called of God. And that this man as well recreated the church that was set up by Jesus Christ himself.

I also believe that if you would just read our works without the mind set of anti-mormonism and ponder and pray about what you have just read, I fervently believe that you will recognize the truth in them and why we do things they way we do.

I easily understand why you think the things you do about the church I attend and believe in. If you could just get past that mental block you have erected to guard and twist the words from our works that you had read, you would get so much out of it.

No matter what you write or say, I will always know my church, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, is the true church and that the priesthood that was on this Earth when Jesus Christ was here on Earth has been restored. I know that Joseph Smith was the first true prophet of the latter days and that only his successors hold the authority to use all of the keys of the Priesthood. I also know that Joseph Smith saw both Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ, two distinct personages, when he went to ask which church he should join. And I sustain and believe that Thomas S. Monson is a prophet, a seer, and a revelator and has the full authority of the Godhead to run the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.

I have written these things in the name of Jesus Christ, Amen.

[The Deacon OCS]

This is about the same response I get when your local missionaries come to my door.

You have not shown me where I have twisted the words of your books. I have simply quoted from them.

I am not anti-mormon against the mormon people themselves. As I have said, one of my closest friends is a mormon who now resides in Utah. If I was anti-mormon, I would not waste my time with him. I consider him closer than a brother and I will continue to pray for him.

The Bible was written by 40 men inspired by God over a period of about 2,000 of years. And yet, no one has been able to find a place where the Bible conflicts with itself or is in error. The prophecies that have come true to date is incredible. The mathmatics of both is incalcuable. In fact, Blaise Pascal proved based on mathmatics alone the Bible was true.

We are not against you Spartan and have placed you on our OCS prayer list.