Can You Lose Your Salvation?

[The Deacon OCS]

Mouko and I have hinted about starting this thread. PureKnight brought it up on another thread. So here we go:

Theologically, this is a very deep and well debated subject.

I will start with the Armenianism vs. Calvinism debate.

I will post more later but wanted others to get a start first.

Personally, I believe Calvin was right - you can not lose your salvation. That being said, there should be some evidence that you were actually saved in the first place, ie. faith without works is dead.

Hold on because Mouko and I are about to get really longwinded 

[Heff OCS]

Can you lose your salvation?      Hmmmmmm, let me think... .... Ummmmmm

No

1 John 5:13 
These things I have written to you who believe in the Son of God, in order that you may know that you have eternal life.

Eternal does not mean for a few minutes, hours, days or years it means forever.

Is there a sin so bad that cannot be washed away by the Blood of Jesus?  No

At this point I expect you guys, that are more knowledgable about the Bible than I, to say , "Heff, what about Mark 3:28-30, "the blasphemy against the Spirit"  or what is commonly refered to as "the unpardonable sin".

Well my reply would be that no Christian could commit a sin for which there will never be forgiveness.

John 5:24
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

From the above verse we can deduce that no Christian could commit a sin which would result in loss of their salvation.  Furthermore if a Christian were able to commit the sin of "blasphemy against the Spirit" then we could conclude from the above verses that they were not really a Christian nor were they ever truely saved so they could not lose their salvation since they really never had it to begin with.

[Mouko OCS]

Long-winded ain't the word for what I can get on this.  There are so many things to consider and talk about that where to begin is going to be a challenge in itself.  We often think, and rightly so, that this subject is pretty cut and dry...but often times without being able to explain why.  On both sides of the coin there are arguments to be made, however, some often get misplaced or misdirected...when they ultimately are pointing to the same thing...that no, you can not lose your salvation.  Though the answer is a biblical no, understanding THAT this is the case should not be enough for us as knowing WHY is such an AWESOME learning and growing experience in just who our great, mighty, and awesome Lord is and what He's done.

It will likely be some time before I'm able to put in what I've learned and have been totally convinced of not by knowledge of men but by the Word of God.  I understand how strongly so many of us feel on this subject, but, as Deacon was getting at, let's take a little time on this one and really learn what the Word says in an organized and MATURE manner.  The reason I say mature with emphasis is that it is easy to let pride get in the way here when discussing this topic.  I'm not saying it will, but, that I've seen it get in the way, leading to misinterpretations, misunderstandings, and hurt feelings from nearly personal attacks.

I will do my best to finally get all the stuff I've written and been trying to write for a while now a bit more organized and put in a coherent order.  From discussions I've had with you Deacon, I know this is something you've put much time into as well and you and I share much if not all of the same convictions.  So as to not double-up on things, maybe we should talk a bit first, because I know we will say alot of the same things more than once.

[The Deacon OCS]

Point #1 Armenianism vs Calvinism


Armenianism

Free-Will or Human Ability

Although human nature was seriously affected by the fall, man has not been left in a state of total spiritual helplessness. God graciously enables every sinner to repent and believe, but He does not interfere with man's freedom. Each sinner possesses a free will, and his eternal destiny depends on how he uses it. Man's freedom consists of his ability to choose good over evil in spiritual matters; his will is not enslaved to his sinful nature. The sinner has the power to either cooperate with God's Spirit and be regenerated or resist God's grace and perish. The lost sinner needs the Spirit's assistance, but he does not have to be regenerated by the Spirit before he can believe, for faith is man's act and precedes the new birth. Faith is the sinner's gift to God; it is man's contribution to salvation.




Calvinism

Total Inability or Total Depravity

Because of the fall, man is unable of himself to savingly believe the gospel. The sinner is dead, blind, and deaf to the things of God; his heart is deceitful and desperately corrupt. His will is not free, it is in bondage to his evil nature, therefore, he will not - indeed he cannot - choose good over evil in the spiritual realm. Consequently, it takes much more than the Spirit's assistance to bring a sinner to Christ - it takes regeneration by which the Spirit makes the sinner alive and gives him a new nature. Faith is not something man contributes to salvation but is itself a part of God's gift of salvation - it is God's gift to the sinner, not the sinner's gift to God.

[Navy CW4]

Can a born again Christian ever lose his salvation?

Can a Christian ever lose their salvation? Can someone who has truly been saved ever be lost?

What saith the scriptures?

Salvation is BELIEVING in Jesus Christ

Salvation is trusting or believing in, by faith, that Jesus Christ paid for your sins with His blood on the cross of Calvary.

"He that BELIEVETH on the Son hath everlasting life:. . ." John 3:36

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever BELIEVETH in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." John 3:16

We are NOT saved by WORKS

The Bible makes it clear that OUR WORKS has nothing whatsoever to do with our salvation.

We don't receive it by our works — and we don't keep it by our works!

" NOT BY WORKS of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us,. . ." Titus 3:5

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: NOT OF WORKS, lest any man should boast." Ephesians 2:8,9

Salvation is a FREE GIFT

Salvation is the free gift of God. If we had to work to keep it — it would not be a free gift — and God would be a liar!

". . . the GIFT of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." Romans 6:23

". . .by the righteousness of one THE FREE GIFT came upon all men unto justification of life." Romans 5:18

Salvation is a NEW BIRTH.

Salvation is not enduring or a process, but an event in time. Salvation is a NEW BIRTH. Just as your first birth happened on a certain time and day, so does the second birth.

"(For he saith, I have heard thee in a TIME accepted, and in THE DAY OF SALVATION have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted TIME; behold, now is THE DAY OF SALVATION.)" 2 Corinthians 6:2

"Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be BORN AGAIN, he cannot see the kingdom of God." John 3:3

"Being BORN AGAIN, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever." 1 Peter 1:23
  You become a CHILD OF GOD

Once you are born again SPIRITUALLY — you become a child of God.

"Beloved, NOW are we the SONS OF GOD, . . ." 1 John 3:2

"For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of ADOPTION, whereby we cry, Abba, FATHER." Romans 8:15

Nothing can SEPARATE us from our Father

Just as nothing can "negate" your physical birth, nothing can "negate" your spiritual birth.

My children will always be my children. We may have troubled times. Our fellowship may be broken, but our relationship can never be broken. They will always be my children. Nothing or nobody can change that! And once you are born again spiritually — God becomes your Father — nothing or nobody can change that! Your fellowship may be broken, but your relationship can never be broken!

"For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, SHALL BE ABLE TO SEPARATE US from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord." Romans 8:38

"My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand." John 10:29

Jesus will NEVER leave us

Jesus promised He will never leave us. Jesus could not say this if there was even a chance of losing our salvation.

". . .for he hath said, I WILL NEVER LEAVE THEE, nor forsake thee." Hebrews 13:5

". . . and, lo, I am with you ALWAY, even unto the end of the world. Amen." Matthew 28:20

We already HAVE eternal life

When the Bible speaks of possessing eternal life, it speaks in the present tense (hath, have, etc.) — SOMETHING WE ALREADY HAVE! If we had to work or endure to keep our salvation, this could not be true.

"He that believeth on the Son HATH EVERLASTING LIFE:.. ." John 3:36

"These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that YE HAVE ETERNAL LIFE,. . ." 1 John 5:13

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, HATH EVERLASTING LIFE,. . ." John 5:24

Jesus will NOT cast you out

". . . him that cometh to me I WILL IN NO WISE CAST OUT." John 6:37

We are COMPLETE in Jesus Christ

"And ye are COMPLETE IN HIM, which is the head of all principality and power:" Colossians 2:10

We are PERFECTED FOR EVER

We are "perfected for ever" by Jesus Christ. How could the Lord say such a bold statement if we had to earn or keep our salvation?

"By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ ONCE FOR ALL. . . For by one offering he hath PERFECTED FOR EVER them that are sanctified." Hebrews 10:10,14

We are PRESERVED in Christ Jesus

"Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and PRESERVED IN JESUS CHRIST, and called:" Jude 1

"And THE LORD. . . WILL PRESERVE ME unto his heavenly kingdom:. . ." 2 Timothy 4:18

We are KEPT by the POWER of God

"Who are KEPT BY THE POWER OF GOD through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time." 1 Peter 1:5

"Now unto him that is able TO KEEP YOU from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy," Jude 24

We are saved to the UTTERMOST

"Wherefore he is able also to save them to the UTTERMOST that come unto God by him,. . ." Hebrews 7:25

We are SEALED until the day of redemption

"And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby YE ARE SEALED unto the day of redemption." Ephesians 4:30

". . .after that ye believed, YE WERE SEALED with that holy Spirit of promise," Ephesians 1:13

What about the BACKSLIDER?

What about the "backslider" or somebody that forsakes the Lord? The Bible says he will suffer loss (rewards, etc.) — but he himself shall be saved!

"For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: BUT HE HIMSELF SHALL BE SAVED; yet so as by fire." 1 Corinthians 3:11-15

We become the BODY OF CHRIST

"For we are MEMBERS OF HIS BODY, of his flesh, and of his bones." Ephesians 5:30

"Now ye are the BODY OF CHRIST, and members in particular." 1 Corinthians 12:18

What if we later — BELIEVE NOT?

Our salvation is so secure — even if we BELIEVE NOT after we're saved, because we become part of Him (the body of Christ), ". . .yet he abideth faithful: HE CANNOT DENY HIMSELF."

"If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: HE CANNOT DENY HIMSELF." 2 Timothy 2:13

But what if I sin an awful sin?

1 Corinthians 5 reports of an awful sin in the church. And even though Paul commands ". . . To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh" — Paul still speaks of that person being saved — ". . .that the spirit MAY BE SAVED. . ."

"It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife. . .To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit MAY BE SAVED in the day of the Lord Jesus." 1 Corinthians 5:1,5

To lose your salvation — makes God a LIAR

With all the PROMISES from God to KEEP you, to SAVE you, to PRESERVE you — to even suggest you could lose your salvation — is to call God a LIAR!

". . .he that BELIEVETH NOT GOD hath made him a LIAR; . . ." 1 John 5:10

Why do people doubt their salvation?

They trust in feelings rather than the word of God.

"He that trusteth in his own heart is a fool:. . ." Proverbs 28:26

They are confused by the simplicity of salvation.

"But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtlety, so your minds should be corrupted from THE SIMPLICITY that is in Christ." 2 Corinthians 11:3

They trust in tradition or church teachings rather than the word of God.

"Making the word of God of none effect through your TRADITION,. . ." Mark 7:13

They trust in their own righteousness.

". . . and all OUR RIGHTEOUSNESSES are as filthy rags;. . ." Isaiah 64:6

They misapply and misunderstand scriptures.

They misapply scriptures such as Matthew 24:13, Hebrews 10:26 to the church age of grace, when they doctrinally apply to the tribulation or the millenium.

They have NEVER been saved.

"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven;. . ." Matthew 7:21

HAVE YOU EVER BEEN SAVED?

Is there a time and place in your life, when you trusted in the blood of Jesus Christ? Not joined a church, not kept the sacraments, not baptism, not good works — but simply, by faith, prayed and asked Jesus Christ to save you?

To die without Jesus Christ will be the worst thing you could ever do.

"And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the LAKE OF FIRE." Revelation 20:15

YOU CAN BE SAVED THIS VERY MINUTE!

Know you're a sinner.

"As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:" Romans 3:10
"... for there is no difference. For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;" Romans 3:23

That Jesus Christ died on the cross to pay for your sins.

"Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, ..." 1 Peter 2:24
"... Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood," Revelation 1:5

And the best way you know how, simply trust Him, and Him alone as your personal Savior.

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." John 3:16
"For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved." Romans 10:13

WOULD YOU LIKE TO BE SAVED?

Pray this prayer, and mean it with all your heart.
Lord Jesus, I know that I am a sinner, and unless you save me I am lost forever. I thank you for dying for me at Calvary. I come to you now, Lord the best way I know how, and ask you to save me. I now receive you as my Savior. In Jesus Christ Name, Amen

[The Deacon OCS]

Good Post Navy


Point #2 Armenianism vs Calvinism


Armenianism
Conditional Election

God's choice of certain individuals unto salvation before the foundation of the world was based upon His foreseeing that they would respond to His call. He selected only those whom He knew would of themselves freely believe the gospel. Election therefore was determined by or conditioned upon what man would do. The faith which God foresaw and upon which He based His choice was not given to the sinner by God (it was not created by the regenerating power of the Holy Spirit) but resulted solely from man's will. It was left entirely up to man as to who would believe and therefore as to who would be elected unto salvation. God chose those whom He knew would, of their own free will, choose Christ. Thus the sinner's choice of Christ, not God's choice of the sinner, is the ultimate cause of salvation.


Calvinism
Unconditional Election

God's choice of certain individuals unto salvation before the foundation of the world rested solely in His own sovereign will. His choice of particular sinners was not based on any foreseen response of obedience on their part, such as faith, repentance, etc. On the contrary, God gives faith and repentance to each individual whom He selected. These acts are the result, not the cause of God's choice. Election therefore was not determined by or conditioned upon any virtuous quality or act foreseen in man. Those whom God sovereignly elected He brings through the power of the Spirit to a willing acceptance of Christ. Thus God's choice of the sinner, not the sinner's choice of Christ, is the ultimate cause of salvation.

[PureKnight OCS]

Navy,

Your post come with some cautious of usage of scripture. I will be out of town until Thursday. By then, you can count for my response!

One scripture come to my mind... 1 Cor 6:9-10. It say no one can enter Heaven if commit such acts: drunkard, idolarty, homosexuality, murder and many more.

Let me tell my own personal experience... my good friend died not long ago due to car crash because of alcohol involvement. Now... he confess that he is Christian and that he believe that Jesus is God and that He is real. However, he continue behave and conform to worldly pattern such as drug, drink, and another dangerous behavior such as speeding the car. That fateful and tragic evening, he got drunk and drive at high speed on wrong lane. AT his fault, he killed old lady (and dog) and at the same time, he killed himself in car crash.

At his beautiful funernal, his dad (he is baptist pastor and wonderful servant of God) proclaim that he is saved and currently in Heaven.

Now, according to not only by 1 Cor. 6:9-10 but many other scripture account for it. I figure (in my mind) that my fateful friend is murder (kill innocent lady), drunkard, and continue treat drug as his "idol". Now.. tell me... how do you justify that? Where is the line with God. AFter all, God have standard for us to follow!

Dont get me wrong, I understand all about love, salvation, grace, mercy, and another goodness characteristics of our good God. We have to look at other side of God... he also got wrath, jealousy, judge, and such.

Looking forward to your response by the time I got home. Meanwhile, I would always appreciate your prayer and remembrance... of course... your love.

[The Deacon OCS]

Mouko and I want to make sure this stays on a friendly but scriptural level. This subject involves some deep theology and can be confusing for a newer believer or even a mature one. There are a number of theological thoughts on this issue and we are hitting on just a couple of the more mainstream ones.

Citing one or two verses as an answer can also be confusing if they are taken out of context or not left in context. One needs to read the entire context of a verse both preceding it and following it to get the correct context.


PureKnight - keeping the verses in context would suggest that if your friend committed a sin but had accepted Christ as his Saviour, he is still saved. We all sin yet by faith in the Grace of God we are saved if we believe in Him. We only need to look at the two me on the crosses to the left and right of Christ and the decisions they made before they died. Based on those decisions we look at the answers given from Christ. A Christian may not always rid themselves of a continous sin in their life but their should be actions from them that they are trying to turn from it. The Apostle Paul asked God to take away a thorn in his life but God would not because it kept Paul looking to Christ for help. Anytime someone professes to be a Christian, they will still sin, but there should be some example of fruit or Christian growth in their life for people to see. They will be convicted of their sin through the Holy Spirit if they are truly saved. Christ warned us about people who profess to know Him and yet they really did not:   

Matt 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord , shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord , have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
KJV

When I know someone that dies that professes to know Christ, I simply look at their life(in a non-judging way) and whether or not there is any merit to their words. We all fall down and sin but our walk should reflect a love for God and service to Him. Simply put, does a man or woman's words match their actions overall.

[Nighthawk]

Deacon , Mouko  after all your post i have read and will read you guys still truely amaze me with your knowleadge and kindness     

and Pure i too would like to understand where God draws a line but i think if we had that information to many would use it in a bad way pushing it to the limit and i would like to be know to God as faithful and commited and seen by my fruits not for keeping just inside the limit or lines  So i think its best not to know just live a life worthy of being called a child of God and Prue you always have my prayer sent and wrapped in LOVE  my Brother 

[The Deacon OCS]

Point #3 Armenianism vs Calvinism

Armenianism
Universal Redemption or General Atonement

Christ's redeeming work made it possible for everyone to be saved but did not actually secure the salvation of anyone. Although Christ died for all men and for every man, only those who believe on Him are saved. His death enabled God to pardon sinners on the condition that they believe, but it did not actually put away anyone's sins. Christ's redemption becomes effective only if man chooses to accept it.



Calvinism
Particular Redemption or Limited Atonement 

Christ's redeeming work was intended to save the elect only and actually secured salvation for them. His death was substitutionary endurance of the penalty of sin in the place of certain specified sinners. In addition to putting away the sins of His people, Christ's redemption secured everything necessary for their salvation, including faith which unites them to Him. The gift of faith is infallibly applied by the Spirit to all for whom Christ died, therefore guaranteeing their salvation.

[Mouko OCS]

Sorry guys that it's taking me so long to respond.  This past month has been one of the most busy weeks I've had in YEARS.  I am struggling at times to even make time for my wife.  This week we have VBS at Church so I'll be pulling 13 hour days all week, heh heh, to the glory of God.

I'm HOPING to finish up tonight after I get in and spend a little time with my wife.  But, for now, let me address a few things.

One scripture come to my mind... 1 Cor 6:9-10. It say no one can enter Heaven if commit such acts: drunkard, idolarty, homosexuality, murder and many more.

We had a discussion in a Bible study group not long ago about this very thing Pure.  That exact scripture came to question.  We have to remember, when reading these verses, a few points.  First, look forward at vs 11 that says this, "And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God."  So we know that we, believers, have been washed of the guilt and penalty of this sin through the blood of Jesus.  Not only that, but, we also know that in some way, and to some degree, Christians can still be found guilty of the same things.  Take murder for example.  I've never killed a person without cause (or ever before ya'll start getting worried ), BUT, I have been guilty of being found angry against my brother without cause...violating the BIBLE's definition of murder in Matthew 5:22).  If we are not carefull, reading these verses alone will lead us to believe that if we are EVER found guilty of any of these, we will not see Heaven.  If that were true, NO man would ever.

The Bible in these verses is speaking of these things as a pattern of life...the same as other scriptures speaking of sin in a man's life.  We know that this side of Heaven we will not be without sin...and so does the Lord.  The Christian has been washed of these sins, but, are still capable of sin.  The question is, what does a person's life reflect?  A pattern of obedience and conformity to the Lord's will for our lives or a pattern of conformity to the world.  I know people who fit that bill of professing that they are saved, however, their life seems to reflect it only when it's convenient, if at all.

Again folks, I'm sorry I'm taking so long on this...I've just been balancing alot this past month...and it's not really slowing down.  When I do finish, I think I'm going to post a link because it's ALOT of stuff.  ALOT of easy-to-understand, common sense, plain english stuff that even someone as SLOW as me can understand...and I know most of you have to be faster in-the-head than me.

Like Deacon said, this is the type of theology that many will not directly deal much with in their life.  It concerns things that are often very difficult for us to grasp or comprehend.  Heh, it's not remotely new to me and it's STILL very difficult at times for me to grasp...and I can't even say that I fully grasp it or ever will this side of Heaven.  My suggestion is that as you read some of the things we will talk about in this, that you remember that, as Isaiah 55:8,9 tell us, His thoughts and ways are FAR ABOVE ours.  We can't fathom the depths of the knowledge and wisdom of the ways of the Lord.  What often makes NO sense at all to us makes PERFECT sense to God.  However, don't let US convince you.  Take what you read and put your heart and mind to them and more importantly, to God in prayer. 

For those Christians that are not convinced that you are secure in Christ, I pray that you truly consider the things we have and will talk about here.  For those who are convinced, I pray that you NEVER use this precious knowledge as an excuse for sin in your life that you KNOW is not pleasing to the Lord and STRONGLY URGE you to consider the Lord you say you love and serve and examine your heart to see whether or not you are TRULY in the faith.

2 Corinthians 13:5 Test yourselves [to see] if you are in the faith; examine yourselves! Or do you not recognize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you--unless indeed you fail the test?

[The Deacon OCS]

Point #4 Armenianism vs Calvinism

Armenianism
The Holy Spirit Can Be Effectually Resisted

The Spirit calls inwardly all those who are called outwardly by the gospel invitation; He does all that He can to bring every sinner to salvation. But inasmuch as man is free, he can successfully resist the Spirit's call. The Spirit cannot regenerate the sinner until he believes; faith (which is man's contribution) proceeds and makes possible the new birth. Thus, man's free will limits the Spirit in the application of Christ's saving work. The Holy Spirit can only draw to Christ those who allow Him to have His way with them. Until the sinner responds, the Spirit cannot give life. God's grace, therefore, is not invincible; it can be, and often is, resisted and thwarted by man.



Calvinism
The Efficacious Call of the Spirit or Irresistible Grace

In addition to the outward general call to salvation which is made to everyone who hears the gospel, the Holy Spirit extends to the elect a special inward call that inevitably brings them to salvation. The internal call (which is made only to the elect) cannot be rejected; it always results in conversion. By means of this special call the Spirit irresistibly draws sinners to Christ. He is not limited in His work of applying salvation by man's will, nor is He dependent upon man's cooperation for success. The Spirit graciously causes the elect sinner to cooperate, to believe, to repent, to come freely and willingly to Christ. God's grace, therefore, is invincible; it never fails to result in the salvation of those to whom it is extended.

[The Deacon OCS]

Point #5 Armenianism vs Calvinism (Final point addressing these two beliefs)

Armenianism
Falling from Grace

Those who believe and are truly saved can lose their salvation by failing to keep up their faith, etc. All Arminians have not been agreed on this point; some have held that believers are eternally secure in Christ - that once a sinner is regenerated, he can never be lost.


Calvinism
Perseverance of the Saints

All who are chosen by God, redeemed by Christ, and given faith by the Spirit are eternally saved. They are kept in faith by the power of Almighty God and thus persevere to the end.


According to Armenianism:

Salvation is accomplished through the combined efforts of God (who takes the initiative) and man (who must respond) - man's response being the determining factor. God has provided salvation for everyone, but His provision becomes effective only for those who, of their own free will, "choose" to cooperate with Him and accept His offer of grace. At the crucial point, man's will plays a decisive role; thus man, not God, determines who will be recipients of the gift of salvation.


According to Calvinism:

Salvation is accomplished by the almighty power of the Triune God. The Father chose a people, the Son died for them, the Holy Spirit makes Christ's death effective by bringing the elect to faith and repentance, thereby causing them to willingly obey the gospel. The entire process (election, redemption, regeneration) is the work of God and is by grace alone. Thus God, not man, determines who will be the recipients of the gift of salvation.

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A Matthew passage, "It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God." (Mt 19:24) demonstrates that riches become a hindrance to seeking salvation at all, not losing salvation.

Revelation 2:5 speaks of Christ removing the lampstand from Ephesus. In order to be consistent with Matthew 5:15-16, we must understand the lampstand to be the witness of the Ephesian church, not their salvation. Indeed, the Ephesian church did not continue as a body, and its members were dispersed, although I don't believe this means they were no longer Christians.

Lastly, Revelation 3:5 is a good argument. It says that if you are a Christian, you are guaranteed that your name will not be erased from the Book of Life. Every passage dealing with unbelievers states that their names were not found in the Book of Life. It does not say that their names are blotted out from the Book.

I do want to issue a clarification and a word of caution. Because I believe that one cannot lose his salvation does not mean I think we should approach our Christian walk with a cavalier attitude. Jesus taught us in John 14: 15 "If you love me, keep my commandments." Paul also illustrates this clearly in 1 Corinthians 3 as he talks of how our actions as Christians will be judged. He sums it up in verse 15, stating "If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire." Then, when we read his admonition to run with endurance and to finish well, we can better understand that he is encouraging us toward a strong Christian lifestyle because it is 1) pleasing to God; and 2) a more effective way to reach others for Christ. It is our "reasonable service."(Rom. 12:1)

Again, when you cite a verse, you must be aware of the context in which it was written: Is God talking to the non-believer, the believer, or both. When you understand the context you will understand who it is directed to and thus the meaning. Whole religions (including some major ones) have been created off a verse or two from the Bible and on top of that the scripture was taken out of context.

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At this point I expect you guys, that are more knowledgable about the Bible than I, to say , "Heff, what about Mark 3:28-30, "the blasphemy against the Spirit"  or what is commonly refered to as "the unpardonable sin". Well my reply would be that no Christian could commit a sin for which there will never be forgiveness.

Heff has a great point here. Keeping this passage in context, the passage is known as the "The Blasphemy of the Scribes" . The scribes came together to hinder the Doctrine of Christ. When the Bible refers to Scribes it is in reference to them as non-believers who conspired against Christ. Matthew Henry has some interesting commnentary on these verses:

Mark 3:22-30
III. The awful warning Christ gave them (Scribes) to take heed how they spoke such dangerous words as these; however they might make light of them, as only conjectures, and the language of free-thinking, if they persisted in it, it would be of fatal consequence to them; it would be found a sin against the last remedy, and consequently unpardonable; for what could be imagined possible to bring them to repentance for their sin in blaspheming Christ, who would set aside such a strong conviction with such a weak evasion? It is true, the gospel promiseth, because Christ hath purchased, forgiveness for the greatest sins and sinners, v. 28. Many of those who reviled Christ on the cross (which was a blaspheming of the Son of man, aggravated to the highest degree), found mercy, and Christ himself prayed, Father, forgive them; but this was blaspheming the Holy Ghost, for it was by the Holy Spirit that he cast out devils, and they said, It was by the unclean spirit, v. 30. By this method they would outface the conviction of all the gifts of the Holy Ghost after Christ's ascension, and defeat them all, after which there remained no more proof, and therefore they should never have forgiveness, but were liable to eternal damnation. They were in imminent danger of that everlasting punishment, from which there was no redemption, and in which there was no intermission, no remission.
(from Matthew Henry's Commentary on the Whole Bible: New Modern Edition, Electronic Database. Copyright (c) 1991 by Hendrickson Publishers, Inc.)

[PureKnight OCS]

I am sorry... what you guys been saying that God has no line nor standard for us to follow. If we dont follow up to His standard and we still being saved. It is like cancelling the grace of God. God continue "shine" His grace upon us until the fateful death then from there, we will receive our final judgement.

Your comment give us excuse to commit sin without being God-fearing. Dont you agree?

[PureKnight OCS]

If I am right... Calvinism believe in the doctrine of predestination (spelling?). Thus, I am little nervous about using that calvinism.

[PureKnight OCS]

Give me more time to study this closer. It is required lot of studying and reading.

[Mouko OCS]

I am sorry... what you guys been saying that God has no line nor standard for us to follow. If we dont follow up to His standard and we still being saved. It is like cancelling the grace of God. God continue "shine" His grace upon us until the fateful death then from there, we will receive our final judgement.

Your comment give us excuse to commit sin without being God-fearing. Dont you agree?

Pure, we're not saying at all that God does not have a standard for us to follow.  That is clearly seen throughout scripture.  What we are saying is that salvation is from and due to God alone.  What we are saying is that God keeps us in and by His grace and power...that TRUE believers will persevere as God preserves them.  We all know people, I'm sure, that at some point seemed as though they knew the Lord then "fell away."  We all know that just because a person may look like, sound like, act like, a Christian, that doesn't necessarily mean they are.  Look at Matthew 7:21-23 for example.  These guys were every kind of religious, and even say they did it in the name of Jesus...YET, He still said "I never knew you."  Why?  Because they relied on their works, their religious activity...yet Jesus called them, "you who practice lawlessness," revealing the LACK of saving faith in spite of their religious lives seemingly devoted to Jesus.

If I am right... Calvinism believe in the doctrine of predestination (spelling?). Thus, I am little nervous about using that calvinism.

That's a part of it yes.  But there is MUCH more to it than that alone.

[PureKnight OCS]

In addition, I think it is a matter of being true repentance. Without repentance, one cannot be saved. Is that right?

[Mouko OCS]

In addition, I think it is a matter of being true repentance. Without repentance, one cannot be saved. Is that right?

Without repentance one can not be saved, you are correct.

[Nighthawk]

.

Your comment give us excuse to commit sin without being God-fearing. Dont you agree?

Pure  iam not sure where your going with all this my Brother  please his mercy and grace are very abundent but is no liscenes to sin and  if we are predestend  that dont mean we wont stray or lose are way thats where we truely find his mercy and grace and i believe that by his true design  most call it free will you can pick up your cross or leave with out it its our choice and thank God for men like The Deacon and Mouko to help pull us back to the right path and break it down for people like myself who have a hard time sometimes understanding things for this whole topic is very deep and some what confussing

[Mouko OCS]

Little brother, it's one I've been looking into for YEARS and it still at times confuses me and at other times gives me great peace in the sovereignty of the Lord.

[Nighthawk]

Amen and thats why iam so thankful for for such great Christain men Like you and so many others here for Godly wisedom and guidance its such a awsome blessing to me from God and i love him so for it 

[The Deacon OCS]

Agreed. This is a very confusing subject even for those who have studied it.

Don't worry Nighthawk, it is good that people like PureKnight should challenge what is being said. I have a good and Godly pastor but he always welcomes people to verify his teaching against scripture. Pure is just keeping us on our toes, making sure we explain ourselves better and are following scripture.

Without repentance one can not be saved.

Pure - Predestination is a whole other deep subject that should be covered under a different thread. God being God knows what will happen before it happens. Otherwise there could be no prophecy that would come true 100% of the time. God knows what happens at the "End of the Age" (read Revelation). His Omniscience (the capacity to know everything infinitely) is scriptural. God know us before we were born.  One could deduce from that that he would know the choices we would make in life before we make them - such as the choice for true salvation. Yet, God still allows us free choice and wishes that none should perish. It is very hard to grasp the concept of Predestination (unconditional election) while allowing Free Election (conditional election). I just study this issue and will likely never have the answer until I reach Heaven. The important part is that we not get caught up in the things we will not know the answers to. It is more important that we follow Christ and plant the seeds of Christ in others.

[Mouko OCS]

Absolutely Deacon...it is important not to get too caught up in things we just don't know the answer to.  I agree that topic is best left possibly to a different thread.

[PureKnight OCS]

Yes... i also agree this discussion belong to another thread. I just want to point it out so that we dont bias but to have full information. I just dont like a hidden agenda.

Now, back to the point... got another but similar question. If this person already confess and believe in Lord Jesus Christ. Years went by, this person willingful decided to commit any sort of sin. Then what? is this person still saved?